**6.2. Practising interacting with students in classrooms**

One aspect of the *Talking to Learn* project was providing PSTs with weekly opportunities to practise interacting with small groups of students. After a few sessions, sessions PSTs tried out different talk moves. In this next segment (recorded on a Flip Camera issued prior to the project), PSTs Lily and Ben are working with a small group of five Grade 3 students; their focus is following up on the science lesson on space.

*Excerpt 2:* "Wow, you know more than me": PSTs interacting with a small group of students.

**1.** Ben: So, what did you do yesterday?

**6.** Ryan: one thing I was thinking about was vacating the floor, and how part of a dialogue was silence, being comfortable with the silence in wait time and owning it to give the kids

**7.** Lily: =so the kids have enough time to really get a good response happening, like its hand-

**8.** Ben: arh:ha, and watching the kids talking with each other in their groups was so interesting, you know their body language too and how they were so used to the school thing of putting up your hand and stuff, one thing I saw some kids looked bored, that they did not know, but I knew they were clever because of what they were saying to me in the group **9.** Ryan: =so makes you wonder what they really know about the universe and space actu-

**10.** Ben: and so I was wondering about that, I was wondering about just, as an aside, where all that sits with learning. So, if we've got this system that's based on control of dialogue it's the same as being the gate keeper of knowledge or the truth, it's the same as classroom control and power. If you've got all that going on with using dialogue for opening it all up, then you're going to have fantastic problem solvers and you're going to be building

**11.** Lily: but good point, I did not think about that, um so when you actually have children being encouraged to have multiple perspectives and they have different meanings and multiple meanings from the same text, how challenging would that be, be to manage? **12.** Ryan: exactly and so what I was talking about before with everyone being funnelled towards one understanding, you know with the IRF, to get to this sort of dialogic talk is having multiple perspectives and all the different things can be true about the same thing at the same time; but how is that reflected in standardised testing where you have got to

In this segment these three PSTs raise several interesting themes related to dialogue in classroom lessons and how it relates to learning. In turn 1, for example, Ryan recognised the ways the IRF relates to an awareness of power and management in classroom interactions. In fact, he described the IRF interaction exchange structure he was observing as "pseudo participation". Lily developed Ryan's point further (in turn's 3 and 5) by clarifying that it actually is a move that is counter to a "learning conversation". She then extended the idea by suggesting that the "toing and froing closes down opportunities for extending deeper thinking, learning". Her comments that the IRF is a structure that shuts down participation orients to the

Ryan and Ben develop the point about the IRF question-answer structure further by raising the matter of strategic silence and owning the silence. Their comments suggest that having the teacher vacate the floor to let students have more control of the conversation makes it more dialogic. As Ryan (turn 6) stated, "being comfortable with the silence and owning it, to give

notion that she recognised that it might, in fact, restrict student growth.

enough to think about what to say first and talk among themselves=

ing the control a bit back to the students

76 Contemporary Pedagogies in Teacher Education and Development

genuine knowledge

have that one answer correct?…

ally, because most of them do not get to talk at all


**31.** S4: =in space actually

further to explain:

*practice.*

peer Bridie agreed,

*further, get involved more.*

**32.** S1: depending, though sometimes the moon is closer to the sun

**34.** Ben: wow, you know a lot, I better do some study, you know more than me

This segment of talk between five students and two PSTs draws attention to the everyday sociality of lessons; it shows the discursive nature of how sequences of exchanges hold together to form a recount of a prior learning experience. Here participating meant listening to the students as they build their recounts to the initial question posed by Ben, "what did you do yesterday?" What unfolded was a sequence of turns whereby the students developed a collective response adding onto the turns of others (turns 2–8), asking for clarification from others (turn 22; 27–32), questioning (turns 24) and challenging another student's point (turns 24, 25–33). Practising interacting with these students involved talking with *and* listening to their responses. What is interesting is that in the post-session discussion with other PSTs, Ben admitted, "I didn't realise they knew so much". In this discussion Ben went

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*I did not realise that listening, really listening to the children, was so hard. I really had to focus and* 

*For me active listening was a key to how much I learnt. I actually had to learn to listen to them with more care and precision. I did not sort of get they knew a lot already. I completely underestimated how much they already knew and could do with things like web searching… so if in the end I did not listen with intent then my teaching would lack responsivity and then in the end be completely ineffectual.*

Ben and Lily's comments highlighted a key finding; that focusing critically on listening to and interacting with students was critical for developing dialogic practices within the intersubjective spaces of classrooms. This approach highlighted, for the PSTs, the particular interactive orders and arrangements that shape a dialogic approach to teaching and learning practices (or not). It enabled them to recognise, experience and articulate how their interaction experiences provided a necessary condition for student learning and engagement. For them to be effective, they both sensed and experienced that pedagogical dialogues required an overt knowledge of talk and interaction and a distinctive shift of power towards enacting talk moves that reflected that pedagogy is a shared endeavour. As their

*Through listening to another's point of view or opinion – including the children - I myself can learn more about various things and broaden my knowledge, and also can relate to what others may be feeling or thinking on a certain topic. This highlights what we need to explicitly know, the idea that classroom discussion between children can be a vital help to a child's learning through talking and listening and can have the same effect on them as it did on myself. Different talk moves can certainly help them go* 

**33.** S5: yeah like when it goes 'round the other side

Lily agreed. She took up this point further in her comment:

**35.** S2: I need a rubber. Where's a rubber?


**31.** S4: =in space actually

**5.** Lily: oh, what about the balls?

**7.** S4: like putting them in order

thought the sizes were, did not you?

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**11.** Ben: Fantastic. And today, what did you get to do?

**12.** S5: Asked to, now that explain, explain the sizes, why the=

gestures representing making different sized circles))

**21.** S4: The sun's in the middle but … ((talk overlapping)).

**25.** S3: No you need a [big radio telescope, that's a big ….

**27.** S2: Oh, no even if you had a telescope you could not-

**8.** S1: approximately

**13.** S: =Moon and the sun.

**16.** S: No it's not like that ….

**19.** Lily: =you forgot the word, it's sun. **20.** S5: I said that, the moon and the sun.

**22.** S3: Is not it earth, moon and sun?

**24.** S1: But we cannot see earth, can we?

**26.** S5: [You know, because we are in it.

**28.** S1: But we **can** see it because we are in it-

**30.** S2: yeah like you have to be in the sky=

**10.** S3: Yeah.

**15.** S2: What?

**17.** S: Like that?

size.

in a rocket

**6.** S1: with the different sizes of the balls, like tennis balls and footballs

**9.** Lily: So, what they actually were, as opposed to last week, you just drew what you

**14.** S5: Moon and the sun. How did we do that thing? How do we do it again? ((makes hand

**18.** S5: And the moon and the sun, explain why the moon and the, the moon and the=

**23.** Lily: Well the earth, I guess she's thinking that the earth will be in the middle, and like, where we are, how come when you are in the sky we look at it and they look the same

**29.** S3: because telescopes look from where you are and not down at the Earth, you are not


This segment of talk between five students and two PSTs draws attention to the everyday sociality of lessons; it shows the discursive nature of how sequences of exchanges hold together to form a recount of a prior learning experience. Here participating meant listening to the students as they build their recounts to the initial question posed by Ben, "what did you do yesterday?" What unfolded was a sequence of turns whereby the students developed a collective response adding onto the turns of others (turns 2–8), asking for clarification from others (turn 22; 27–32), questioning (turns 24) and challenging another student's point (turns 24, 25–33). Practising interacting with these students involved talking with *and* listening to their responses. What is interesting is that in the post-session discussion with other PSTs, Ben admitted, "I didn't realise they knew so much". In this discussion Ben went further to explain:

*I did not realise that listening, really listening to the children, was so hard. I really had to focus and practice.*

Lily agreed. She took up this point further in her comment:

*For me active listening was a key to how much I learnt. I actually had to learn to listen to them with more care and precision. I did not sort of get they knew a lot already. I completely underestimated how much they already knew and could do with things like web searching… so if in the end I did not listen with intent then my teaching would lack responsivity and then in the end be completely ineffectual.*

Ben and Lily's comments highlighted a key finding; that focusing critically on listening to and interacting with students was critical for developing dialogic practices within the intersubjective spaces of classrooms. This approach highlighted, for the PSTs, the particular interactive orders and arrangements that shape a dialogic approach to teaching and learning practices (or not). It enabled them to recognise, experience and articulate how their interaction experiences provided a necessary condition for student learning and engagement. For them to be effective, they both sensed and experienced that pedagogical dialogues required an overt knowledge of talk and interaction and a distinctive shift of power towards enacting talk moves that reflected that pedagogy is a shared endeavour. As their peer Bridie agreed,

*Through listening to another's point of view or opinion – including the children - I myself can learn more about various things and broaden my knowledge, and also can relate to what others may be feeling or thinking on a certain topic. This highlights what we need to explicitly know, the idea that classroom discussion between children can be a vital help to a child's learning through talking and listening and can have the same effect on them as it did on myself. Different talk moves can certainly help them go further, get involved more.*

Bridie's realisation that talking to learn should be the province of both the teacher and the learner is important for understanding the power and influence of talk and interaction (especially listening) on learning. Her comments show that rather than always having a focus on the act of teaching a lesson in their practicum placements, PSTs shifted their perspectives on what teaching practice entails by becoming attuned to dialogic pedagogies and the need to build a repertoire of talk moves as critical for interacting with students in lessons.

**1.** acknowledged that they had to learn to listen, it did not come naturally.

that the 'find out about the learner and what they knew prior to teaching'.

moves.

teachers should respond.

granted dimension of being a teacher.

practice at the primordial level of classroom interaction [2].

ferent talk moves.

students.

**7. Conclusion**

**2.** acknowledged that they had to learn to interact with children, for many it was taken to granted and so had to learn to talk with students and practise 'trying out' different talk

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**3.** highlighted that listening was a foundation for understanding student knowledge; many did not realise (and were surprised by) what students actually knew about the range of topics. They were of the belief that the role of the teacher was to deliver curriculum rather

**4.** highlighted they had learned about the importance of responsivity in teaching; that is, by listening closely to what students said in interactions provides value information to which

**5.** articulated an deepening understanding that classroom interactions form an intersubjective mechanism for teaching and learning, and they needed time to explicitly practise dif-

**6.** recognised that different talk moves shifted the power and control of learning towards

**7.** reconceptualised classroom interaction as a pedagogical tool, rather than a taken-for-

**8.** articulated an understanding of the duality of their roles as a both a teacher and as a learner.

For the PSTs in this project, to conceptualise their understandings of the interactivity and sociality of pedagogy, they needed to engage in, practise, reflect on and analyse classroom

The challenge for teacher educators is always ensuring the role of quality teaching is developed across courses. This work needs to be both a theoretical proposition which guides teacher educators and preservice teacher's understandings and a practical proposition which supports efficacy in enactment. This study informs the field of teacher education about how and what PSTs learning about pedagogical dialogues through learning to listen and interact with students in the moment-by-moment interactions they encounter in classrooms. It was found that framing the in-class experience around learning about and enacting dialogic practices, and situating these experiences in classrooms as a site for learning teaching practice, made the focus authentic and timely for first year PSTs. It provided a fundamental, yet critical foundation for understanding and enacting a flexible repertoire of pedagogical dialogues. For PSTs the importance of connecting theoretical propositions made within teacher education course with the authentic interactions with students in classrooms from the beginning of their degree program generated a significant meta-awareness of the nexus between theory and practice.

Through their engagement with learning to talk and interact with students in a focused way, PSTs began to orient to and critically reflect on their own interactions with their group of students. In post-session de-brief interviews, they raised a number of key points about developing and enacting a repertoire of talk moves. For instance, Bella conceded, that "wait time is hard"; she went on to acknowledge:

*I learnt that I need to ask more open questions allowing the students to take the floor and also to get them to talk amongst themselves; that way, they learn, and grow in knowledge with each other, as the student who understands can solidify their own knowledge and for the student who does not, may learn from their friend or peer.*

An overt focus on learning about and practising talk and interaction seemed to be perceived as essential for develop metacognitive awareness of its power and influence on students learning and participating in lessons. Jeb's comments below were typical of the viewpoints of many of the PSTs:

*I didn't realise I had to be more conscious about what I was going to say next, what talk move to use actually – that depends on what we were doing of course, but it takes a lot more thought to be effective I think. But the key for me really was having the chance to try out different talk moves.*

Without exception all PSTs recognised that, like Jeb, having the time background to after the second section as an essential condition for their own learning about classroom dialogue. This practice architecture, "the chance try out different talk moves", appeared to be a fundamental condition for understanding dialogicality, knowing about pedagogical dialogues and developing i) teaching practices, ii) dialogic teaching practices, and iii) a flexible repertoire of interaction moves. As Jeb said, it required an overt consciousness or meta-awareness of its impact on teaching for student learning; and that according to him, "it takes a lot of thought to be effective".

*Learning about dialogic teaching through "talking to learn"*

In general, it was found that the many underlying beliefs held by PSTs about what teaching actually entailed were re-conceptualised as a result of the in-class focus on listening and interacting. This reflection by Ben was typical of the comments made by PSTs about the process:

*So, having the chance to interact with the children in small groups gave me the opportunity to interact with a focus and apply and even understand the theory we have learnt in lectures and workshops without the distraction of the whole class around them.*

Collectively, the following themes from a thematic analysis of interview and survey data emerged; overall preservice teachers:


For the PSTs in this project, to conceptualise their understandings of the interactivity and sociality of pedagogy, they needed to engage in, practise, reflect on and analyse classroom practice at the primordial level of classroom interaction [2].
